Buck Rodgers

Thirty-five years ago, F.G. (Buck) Rodgers began what turned out to be an illustrious career with the then smallish (sales of $250 million) IBM Corporation. The year was nineteen fifty, the country was on the verge of rockin’ around the clock with Bill Haley And The Comets, and the personal computer had not yet been born. It was a world waiting for the explosion of the electronic microchip age and Buck Rodgers was to be one of the knights of its untarnished top brass.

“It was an exciting time,” says Rodgers, “and I was one of the few marketing experts in ‘stored program machines’.” (Computers to you 1980’s aficionados.) Rodgers sold the smaller version of this engineering marvel for two years before getting his first big break. He captained the team that installed one of the first large-scale computers, an IBM 705 by name, in a Westinghouse Electric plant in Sharon, PA. It took up thousands of square feet and relied on vacuum tube technology. “Today,” chuckles former IBM V.P. Marketing Rodgers, “my little PC is more powerful than that behemoth was.”

The one and a half years it took for installation and the ninety day shakedown after it was in, plus the success of the whole operation caught the eye of none other than the executive V.P. of IBM, L.H. Lamotte, Rodgers soon became administrative assistant to one of IBM’s builders and the rest, as they say, is history.

“From him, I learned to clearly articulate what it was I wanted people to accomplish,” Rodgers says. Following in his mentor’s path, Rodgers never set more than five goals at any one time, and never delegated more than that magic number to any subordinate either. “You have to make the choice,” explains Rodgers, “between desirability and necessity.”

It was during an early stint as branch sales manager that Rodgers developed the belief that a company’s organizational structure should be inverted with the customer at the top, and sales reps and management underneath. Rodgers’ commitment to the customer even went so far as to opt for prior appointments with customers over meetings in the IBM executive suite.

Rodgers once promised an aircraft manager in Seattle that if they would buy the IBM product, he would personally fly there every thirty days for six straight months to insure the success of a complex computer installation. It helped make the sale and he kept his word. He is a man given to keeping his word, showing up for meetings on time and remembering appointments.

Since his retirement from IBM, Buck Rodgers has written a book entitled The IBM Way which will be released by Harper & Row, NY on Jan. 28, 1986.

In this exclusive interview, Buck Rodgers talks about the IBM that he has known for thirty-five years, about the past and the present, about what makes it one of the greatest institutions of our age, and the part that he has played in this long running corporate hit.

PSP: Since the year you began your career, there were probably tens of thousands of marketing people hired by IBM in the United States. What do you think allowed you to go to the very top marketing position in the company?

Buck Rodgers: There were two things – commitment and integrity. I never failed to meet objectives. I never failed to be on time for meetings. I tried to do the little things well and the customers always knew they could count on me. So could the people I worked with at IBM. They didn’t have to write me a lot of letters to get things done. The same is still true today. People who call me on the phone with a problem know it’s going to be taken care of.

PSP: When you were hired, was it your dream to one day be the top marketing person at IBM?

Buck Rodgers: No, that came after I had been through several field assignments. I hoped someday to be president of IBM’s computer operations. But I decided that the only way to achieve that was to do the best job in each position I held.

PSP: That’s a good attitude to have.

Buck Rodgers: I have always had a positive attitude. I feel there isn’t any problem that can’t be solved by people with common sense and a little sweat.

PSP: How do you develop this winning attitude?

Buck Rodgers: A lot of it comes from inside the individual. But there are ways you can bring out a person’s innate strengths. For myself, I have always had a talent to speak. I never use any notes or a podium. I walk around. I’ve never had any special training. But public speaking is an ability that I have developed and made good use of.

PSP: So, developing a special talent in one area will help you in other areas?

Buck Rodgers: Yes, always, but you need the desire to excel – at least to live up to one’s own expectations. A lot of my success has been luck and a lot of it turns out to be that I performed in an exemplary way in every job I was given. I wasn’t afraid to fail.

PSP: Did your parents instill a strong belief in you to be an achiever or a winner? To be somebody?

Buck Rodgers: Yes, I think they did. All my life I played sports. I was all-state football, captain of the basketball team, president of the class for four years. I played football in college and today I run five miles, six times a week, plus being an avid golfer and tennis player. I sort of compete with myself, but not to an obsessive point.

PSP: It sounds like you derive a pleasure and satisfaction from being fully functioning?

Buck Rodgers: I agree with that. I spend a lot of time on college campuses talking about changing values. I think people are trying to find the right balance in their lives. They expect to work for fair wages, but they don’t want to sacrifice family life for their jobs. I also feel it’s important to pay what I call ‘civic rent.’ To me, this is teaching young people. To others it may be involvement in drug abuse or mental health programs. Balance is important in life and I think people at all ages are seeking that today.

PSP: The IBM philosophy of business has become almost legendary. What makes it so special?

Buck Rodgers: It is based on three beliefs. First is respect for the individual. Second, to give the best service of any company in the world, and third – to expect excellence from what people do. This was the idea of Tom Watson, Sr., when he started the business back in 1914. He said that if you’re going to do business with the IBM Corporation, you ought to feel that you’re getting value and exceptional service. It is a desire to do things right the first time that permeates the business.

PSP: What impressed you personally about IBM?

Buck Rodgers: When I was being interviewed in college, I had never heard of IBM and I decided to go with them because I was intrigued by their philosophy and I was impressed with the quality of the IBM people that I met.

PSP: You were impressed by the recruiters?

Buck Rodgers: IBM uses first-line managers to do the hiring. The management who does the day by day job. If you are held accountable for results, then you ought to have the freedom to pick the people you want. IBM does that.

PSP: Were there any myths about the company that you found were not true?

Buck Rodgers: There is one (he chuckles) and that’s the IBM dress code. They don’t have any policy that says you’ve got to wear a white shirt or a dark suit or a sincere tie. IBM really doesn’t care, and I don’t either, what people look like as long as they dress with taste. You want the customer to concentrate on what you’re saying not what you look like. Even so, up until the time I retired, I wore a lot more white shirts than I did blue!

PSP: You said that your first position at IBM was as a marketing representative. You didn’t say sales rep.

Buck Rodgers: At IBM we called our people marketing reps. There is a distinction between marketing and selling. Selling, to me, is the art of persuasion. That’s the ability through personal attributes to convince someone that they need to buy the product or service that you’re offering. Marketing to me is a more all encompassing term. It means understanding the customers, speaking their language, putting together a cost justified solution, and most of all being able to give value. IBM doesn’t sell products. At IBM, they sell solutions to a set of problems. What the customer wants to know is how can you improve the inventory turnover rate, or lower his cost – how can you help him better serve his own customers.

PSP: There are so many selling concepts in this country; nonmanipulative selling, the soft sell, consultative selling, situational selling, etc. But you seem to be zeroing in on solution oriented selling.

Buck Rodgers: That’s what IBM’s training program is all about. You’ve got to speak the language that the customer understands. The days of Willy Loman are long gone – you have to go in and think, “How can I in some way with my thinking and my products give value and service to this particular customer?” Those who do this are the individuals who are going to succeed.

PSP: What are your own personal principles of persuasion – ones that work well for you?

Buck Rodgers: I try to be a reasonably good listener. I try to get the customer to have confidence in me as an individual. I try to convince someone that I am interested in him and his problems. I share ideas and then try to get them to share theirs. Then I try to find answers to their problems. Too many times people don’t get the chance to say what’s on their minds. The sales person gives the customer the fire hose approach. That’s missing what might have been the real hot button you were looking for.

PSP: Good listening establishes trust and confidence.

Buck Rodgers: But it’s the hardest thing in the world, especially for people who have a lot of ideas and are enthusiastic. It’s very difficult for all of us.

PSP: I understand that the training program for an IBM marketing rep takes one whole year. How is it structured?

Buck Rodgers: The first thirty day period is an orientation into IBM’s culture and history. After that, the new reps go off to Atlanta and Dallas for thirty days where they start to learn about the products and selling techniques. Then back to the branch office where they apply what they have learned in the classroom. They work with the marketing reps and systems engineers on real-life proposals, and with customers. After about three months, they go back to the classroom for another thirty days of application orientation, plus they find out what the competitive world is all about. During this time they are alternating between theory and practicality. IBM tries to get its marketing reps to understand the terms and conditions and the resources available to them. The entire process is very competitive and they’re on their feet as much as possible. When they’re through, they are totally confident in the products, the competition, and above all, they are application oriented.

PSP: What you seem to be saying is that this kind of totally focused training translates into a professional solution oriented attitude.

Buck Rodgers: That’s right. You don’t go from one level to the next at IBM until you have been tested and proven ready to make that step. It’s a positive type of reinforcement. I’ve seen very fine organizations give little attention to initial training, let alone continuing education. If there’s no structure or discipline – it won’t work. We found out there are two things in a business you increase out of proportion to the growth rate of the company – one is education, the other is communication. You train people well and communicate your goals to them.

PSP: What is the relationship between the trainer in the classroom and the line manager in the branch office?

Buck Rodgers: The line manager has the responsibility to see that the individual completes the training and that he is self-sufficient. The people at the education centers are responsible to make sure that the student is getting the basic fundamentals.

PSP: Who does the actual sales and marketing training at the centers?

Buck Rodgers: IBM takes the best people from their sales force who have an ability to express themselves and gives them training assignments from 18 to 24 months. They become role models who can convey actual field experience. Marketing training is a very sought after job at IBM because it’s a stepping stone to a line management position or to moving up in the business.

PSP: That’s a very unusual concept.

Buck Rodgers: Most companies are reluctant to take their top producers out of the field and put them in education assignments. IBM says you must do this. Whatever the short term effect, it will pay back 10 fold by having knowledgeable representatives interfacing with the customer.

PSP: So your best marketing reps seek out the function of trainer to go higher up the ladder?

Buck Rodgers: That’s right. They don’t get stale in the process and you keep a small number of professional educators, and the rest are fresh, new and enthusiastic.

PSP: Any manager who has been out of selling for more than two or three years tends to get out of touch with the marketplace.

Buck Rodgers: IBM has a management system where they take the top officers – the heads of finance, personnel, the president, the heads of engineering/manufacturing divisions – and they are assigned specific customers. They work with these customers but always through the marketing rep in the branch office. This keeps top management from being in an ivory tower, out of touch with reality. The other bonus is that the branch manager can use this top executive to shortcut bureaucracy. If he needs something done, he can go directly to that individual. It sounds so simple, but believe me, it’s done in very few organizations.

PSP: You coined a wonderful term and I’d like to ask you about it. You once said that people in companies sometimes suffer from ‘psychosclerosis.’

Buck Rodgers: Yes – that means a ‘hardening of the attitudes’ when people begin to feel they no longer can affect what goes on in an organization. Bureaucracy takes over and that’s why IBM pulls people out of their protected little corners. The secret is to move people back and forth between various functions and disciplines. This broadens the person and provides fresh insights.

PSP: What are some of the incentives that IBM creates to inspire sales and marketing people?

Buck Rodgers: First, they are paid well for what they do. IBM has a salary and incentive structure that is split approximately 50/50. It is a ‘pay for performance’ philosophy – the more you install, the more you make. Also, IBM pays its people more than comparable companies.

PSP: And then what else do they offer?

Buck Rodgers: The most important is a meaningful and challenging assignment, beyond that is one of the best benefit programs in any industry. However, there is something I call the ‘take back.’ Any time a piece of equipment is discontinued or canceled, no matter how long it has been installed, the marketing rep who is on that account is charged back with the original commission. This makes sure that when the reps take over an account, they provide outstanding service. Most of IBM’s business is based on repeat orders so the customer is only going to buy as long as he is satisfied.

PSP: That’s a tough rule.

Buck Rodgers: Yes, it is, but it worked for as long as I was with IBM.

PSP: What are some of the other forms of incentive?

Buck Rodgers: There’s the 100 percent Club. This is important because it’s the way to be recognized by your peers and eventually promoted. IBM strives to have between 70 percent and 75 percent of their people make their objectives and attend the 100 percent Club. They also have a Golden Circle. IBM takes the top 10 percent of its sales force from around the world, with their spouses, to a five day recognition event in exciting resort locations. It serves to recognize superior performance, but also has a marketing purpose. You hear a lot of spouses saying, ‘You better bring me back here next year.’

PSP: I understand that you have one other form of incentive that is very popular with the salespeople.

Buck Rodgers: You must be talking about what I call the ‘Lightning Strikes’ program. Management at all levels is given a dollar budget to recognize people on the spot who have demonstrated extraordinary effort. It might be for a new account or for helping a customer with a special problem. The support people can get these awards too. It’s a night on the town, dinner, a show. This can range from a simple thank you to several thousand dollars handed out for unusual acts of heroism.

PSP: It sounds like IBM is run like a small company.

Buck Rodgers: That’s right. When IBM was small, they ran the company like it was big; now that IBM is big, they run it like it’s small. For example, they never let a branch office get above a certain size. Also, every effort is made to maintain a manager to person ratio at about one to twelve.

PSP: What do you think sales people should be taught about selling that they are generally not taught?

Buck Rodgers: Two things come to mind. First, concentrate on what the product will do, not what it is. The customer is only interested in results. Second, develop a financial capability. Due to the wide variety of terms and conditions available today – a key part of the selling business is the ability to clearly portray the right method of financial acquisition.

PSP: Can you talk a little bit about how you helped the IBM rep identify with the total marketing philosophy?

Buck Rodgers: Again, the key is feedback. Every 90 days, IBM asks all of its marketing reps and system engineers to renew the organization from a customer satisfaction perspective. They are asked to tell what they think of the management’s capability, quality of products, and the responsiveness of the support structure. This input is then matched against a similar set of survey questions that have been responded to by customers. This gives top management a good idea of any negative trends. The main objective is to take preventive action and correct the problems, plus focus on the strengths.

PSP: What was the biggest disappointment you ever suffered in your career?

Buck Rodgers: That’s a tough question. At one point I was interested in running the IBM Corporation. That didn’t happen, but it never really affected my style of managing or the way I performed on a daily basis. If I ever got shot out of the saddle, and that happens to everybody, the secret was to be able to get right back on the horse. A lot of people don’t do that, they get gun-shy instead. They start to worry and play it safe. You have to expect disappointments and frustrations in your life.

PSP: In some people it leads to depression and in others it seems to lead to increased ambitions.

Buck Rodgers: If you have the philosophy that you’re going to enjoy life, and do the best you possibly can – it’s going to pay off for you in the long run.

PSP: What is the core of your belief system, if you had to sum it up in one basic principle?

Buck Rodgers: The thing I stress all the time is that you have to do a thousand things 1 percent better, not just do one thing 1,000 percent better. It’s doing the little things well, being on time for meetings, returning phone calls, saying ‘thank you’ to people. It sounds like a simplistic cliche, but that is the reason one organization or one person is successful over someone else. The secret is that everybody knows what they ought to be doing, but the ones who practice daily excellence are the real difference makers.

PSP: It sounds like a game of inches – like a constant victory over yourself.

Buck Rodgers: That’s true. And that’s why I find the line between success and failure, whether it’s personal or business, is so narrow that you often don’t know what side of the line you’re on. With a little extra effort and a positive attitude, the problem goes away. But some people never seem to understand that point.

PSP: Thank you.

Before going in on his own to start IBM, Thomas Watson, Sr., worked for National Cash Register. At the helm of that venerable institution was a strong willed man named John Henry Patterson. He became Watson Sr.’s mentor, and, as we all now know, the lessons he taught were invaluable. Below is Patterson’s own chart describing fifty ways for improving yourself. As the interview with Buck Rogers suggests, many of these wise suggestions are still part of the IBM philosophy of doing business.