Tony Schwartz is buy selling – making an impact that is felt all over the country from an unimposing brownstone in a not too fashionable accent of Manhattan’s west side. He’s been doing it for decades. But he rarely leaves his office, which is also his home.

Schwartz is a media genius. Though you may not know his face, at some time one of his TV or radio ads has surely precipitated your decision to buy. Tony Schwartz is the man called in to make the media pitch from cold cream to Dream Whip, from Democrat to Republican. There have even been instances where his ads got so much attention that the opposing forces in a political campaign had to change strategy in midstream.

As Schwartz himself stated in an interview with the Washington Post, “I was the first one to do commercials for the Cancer Society dealing with emotions rather than medical facts.” He was likewise the first to use a real child’s voice in a commercial rather than the traditional woman imitating a child. And he claims that educators are mistaken in fighting television when they should be using it.

Schwartz has written eloquently about the media, postliterate society, TV, radio, commercials, and a host of other topics in his books, Media, The Second God (Doubleday paperback, NY) and The Responsive Chord (Doubleday Anchor Books, Garden City, NY). He has appeared, via satellite, on the Phil Donahue Show, has been interviewed and quoted widely, and was the subject of an hour long Bill Moyers Special on PBS.

Schwartz is a pioneer whom many call a genius. Together with Marshall McLuhan, he developed much of the media techniques we take for granted today. He continues in his quest for the new truths in media. The products and people he creates commercials for continue to sell. He is a practical intellectual – a rare spirit who approaches his own sales record in an offhand way.

As Schwartz himself says, “I don’t use manipulation. I use participation. I let people know about the things they need and they make their own decisions.”

In this exclusive PSP interview Tony Schwartz, media mastermind, shares his unique approach to selling. “I don’t go for the hard sell or the soft sell,” he says. “I go for the deep sell.”

PSP: How many radio and TV commercials have you created?

Tony Schwartz: I would say over 20,000. I like to say that I’ve written more best sellers than anyone else in the world.

PSP: One of the things you’re so well known for is your ability to surface feelings, conflicts and emotions through your radio commercials. How do you do that?

Tony Schwartz: I have found that anything you can do with pictures you can also do with sound. Let’s take a normal Dream Whip commercial. The script reads, “Dream Whip – Only 14 calories per tablespoon.” Usually this line will be given a literal reading. But I ask, “What is the announcer really saying? He’s really saying, “You don’t have to worry if you eat Dream Whip. You won’t get fat.” So, you want to use what I call an environmental reading – a reading that relates to the real world – the world we live in. You want to read it like a woman who’s on a diet sharing the news with a fat friend. “Dream Whip has only 14 calories per tablespoon.” Or take Bufferin for another example. “Got a headache? Come to Bufferin.” You need to read it like “Got a headache? Come to Mama.” That’s one level.

PSP: Is that an unconscious level?

Tony Schwartz: I don’t like the word unconscious. I prefer the word nonconscious. For instance, if you asked me to name all the tapes in my office, I could tell you maybe 500 or 1000. Then suppose you said, “But what about that one with the man from India? I’d say, “Oh, yes, I remember that one.” I just wouldn’t have been conscious of it.

PSP: How do you surface or evoke a feeling from the listener?

Tony Schwartz: It has to do with the difference between learned recall and evoked recall. For example, when my mother went to a store with a shopping list, the storekeeper would take her order, then go out back, get the stuff and come out. Radio and TV advertising eliminated the need for the salesclerk and made the stockroom into the store. when you walk through and see the various items, you can say, “Hey, we’re out of cereal.” Commercials evoke the connection of the product to your life, and once in the store, the products evoke both the commercial and your own experience.

PSP: Can the same techniques you use in commercials be used in person to person selling?

Tony Schwartz: They are all the time. People in all areas of life use them.

PSP: In your book, Media, The Second God, you wrote that you use the customer as a work force. What do you mean by that?

Tony Schwartz: Here’s an example. (Plays a tape of a commercial) “You know, there are two men running for Congress in the 6th District. Bob Carr and Charles Chamberlain. Mr. Chamberlain has been in Congress for over 12 years. Let me read you a list of things he’s accomplished (dead silence on the tape for a few seconds). You see – that’s exactly why this message is paid for by a growing number of Republicans and Democrats who want Robert Carr elected to Congress.” Research has showed that only one person in a hundred could remember one thing that Chamberlain had done in 12 years in Congress. So I used the audience as a workforce. I let them participate in the commercial.

PSP: How would you describe this process?

Tony Schwartz: I’m allowing people’s associations, or lack of associations, to surface. This enables them to use those associations as part of their thinking. Another factor that I find fantastic in communication is shame. It was the most effective means of social control in primitive cultures. I used it in many commercials.

PSP: Can we hear an example?

Tony Schwartz: Yes. (Plays tape.) Listen to this commercial. “Let me ask you something. Have you ever seen someone allow his dog to go on the sidewalk? Sometimes right in front of a doorway, maybe your doorway? Did it make you angry? Well, don’t get angry at the poor soul. Feel sorry for him. He’s just a person who’s not able to train his dog. He’s just not capable of it. In fact, after he’s had his dog for a short time, what happens? He dog trains him. So the next time you see a person like that on the street, take a good look at him and while you’re looking, feel sorry for him because you know he just can’t help himself, even though he might like to. Some people are strong enough and smart enough to train these dogs to take a few steps off the sidewalk. Other people aren’t. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it, if the master is at the top of the leash or the bottom of the leash.” Most people would have said, “You shouldn’t let your dog do this.” But I said, “You shouldn’t should on people.” Then I thought, “What could I do to make this person not let his dog do this?” People don’t like to be told that they should do something. You’re much better off if you can evoke them to do it for their own reasons.

PSP: Isn’t that a form of manipulation?

Tony Schwartz: I don’t think the word is accurate. Participation is the word I’d use to describe that process. A group of people once told me that they don’t pay any attention to TV commercials. I asked them what kind of toothpaste they used. They all said Crest. At that time, Crest was only being advertised on TV. Participation is when the listener becomes an active part of the selling process.

PSP: You have studied sounds for many years. From the listener’s point of view, when does sound become noise?

Tony Schwartz: Long before the electronic age, when someone heard a drunk coming home singing, it used to be sound. When Barbra Streisand singing on the radio became more interesting, then the drunk became noise for the word sound and you find the real meanings. For instance, the noise of children – the sound of children. People often talk of the clutter factor on radio, but I have no problem with that. If I research people’s interests, I know what will reach them. If I also do a media profile of the people I research, I know what stations they listen to, what magazines they read, and so on. I know what they will mentally tune into and what they will tune out.

PSP: Do you think that the media shapes our expectations?

Tony Schwartz: No, I don’t. I think that it fulfills them. When kids watch TV, they get a good feeling when they see things they use. “We eat that cereal. Our Mom drives that car.”

PSP: Who created the “Deep Sell”?

Tony Schwartz: I did. I say I’m not interested in hard or soft sell. Sometimes deep may come from hard, sometimes from soft. For instance, people don’t remember radio as a source of information the way they do newspapers or magazines. They may not consciously listen to radio. They bathe in it – are surrounded by it. In the same way, someone at home may have the soap operas on TV while they do their chores. I call this a surround. People hear what relates to their experience and interest, therefore participation is deep into their mind. That’s one example of deep sell.

PSP: In an interview with Bill Moyers you said that no one has experience with answers to problems. They only have experience with the problems. What did you mean by that?

Tony Schwartz: We talked about creating commercials for politicians. Often people think that the politicians should use commercials to give answers to problems. First, the politicians don’t have answers. Second, if they gave the answers, people couldn’t identify with the commercials because they don’t have experience with the answers – only the problems. So the best commercial is one that makes people feel that the candidate is qualified, and once they feel he or she is capable and qualified, then you want them to feel that the candidate feels the same way they do about the problem.

PSP: What does that do to the listener?

Tony Schwartz: When the politician tells how he feels about the problem, the audience will feel, “You know he feels the same way I do about that – he’ll do the right thing.”

PSP: What are your ethical standards in creating a commercial?

Tony Schwartz: I would never do anything to anyone else that I wouldn’t like done to me. I wouldn’t do certain ads. I wouldn’t do cigarette ads or any ads for a candidate who was opposed to a mutually verifiable nuclear freeze.

PSP: What’s your measure of success?

Tony Schwartz: Personally, I think being able to earn a living and bring up my family and buy the things that they need. To be a good neighbor and a good person. I do as much free work as I do paid work.

PSP: What’s your professional measure of success?

Tony Schwartz: I’m very interested in using media for social change. I did a campaign in Massachusetts two years ago to help the state government make up for what Reagan cut out of the budget for aid to education to children. I got $34 million two years ago for student aid for education. Last year I did it again and got $50 million for the same thing. I do work for the hospitals here in New York City, for the fire department and for the police.

PSP: So you derive meaning from positive social change?

Tony Schwartz: Yes. The school across the street was voted out of existence. I thought it was an important school – it was training the police and fire fighters. So I did a campaign and we save the school.

PSP: In your book you quoted Daniel Boorstin, “Technology is a way of multiplying the unnecessary.” Then you added, “Technology in advertising creates progress by developing the need for the unnecessary.” Do you feel you dedicate your life to creating needs for the unnecessary?

Tony Schwartz: No, I’m not doing that. Maybe some people are selling products that people don’t need. I attach to real things in people. I do best with products where I can let people know about the things they need. I tell them about what products can do and then they make their own decisions.

PSP: Thank you.

The Stanley Commercial

According to Tony Schwartz, one of the most powerful forms of social control in primitive societies was shame. He believes that shame also works in our new electronic “global village.” To illustrate this point for our editors, he played the following tape of one of his well known commercials – the Stanley Commercial – read by a sexy sounding 25 year old woman.

You know what Stanley says. He says we can’t buy a sofa on Sunday. Stanley says it’s all right if we want to buy a sailboat, but a crib and a baby carriage – out. Can’t buy ’em. You know what else Stanley says. He says we can buy an antique chair – we need a kitchen chair but Stanley says we can’t buy that. You don’t know who Stanley is? Stanley Steingut, the New York State Assembly Speaker. He’s backing a law which will close the department stores and supermarkets on Sunday. Stanley wants the blue laws back again. You want to call Stanley” I’ll give you his number. 518/472-3100. I’m glad you’re calling. If Stanley knows how you feel about it, maybe he’ll change his mind. – paid for by the New York State Retailers Coalition to continue Sunday shopping. – Tell Stanley How You Feel. 518/472-3100.

As Schwartz gleefully tells it, “The day after this commercial was aired on the radio, Stanley had to change his office phone number, and his mind!”